For many, just using the term "Fundamental Baptist" brings ideas and thoughts to mind that stir strong emotions and ideas. I have heard many young people see this term being defined in their mind as being people who believe in only looking with an outward appearance as a set standard. They see people in these churches as people that look one way on the outside but are different in who they really are on the inside. I have found that many of these young people point out that the pastors and evangelists preach about and how church people should put on an outward compliance to those things, but these young people know this is different from what these people are in reality at home and at work. They see church members spending all their time making sure they wear the right clothes, say the right words, read the right materials and Bible (KJV), and listen to the right music (anything that sounds "boring"). They see these people failing to reach out to the needy, hungry, and poor. They see a people who are just angry and bitter because the world is so worldly. These young people then begin to hear all messages preached as being hateful. "Where is the 'love'?" I hear that statement over and over again.
The conclusion for many of these young people is that what they have been hearing must be wrong; therefore, what is opposite must be correct. These young people begin to look for religions that do not look like what they grew up in. They begin to major on not caring about the minors at all instead of truly majoring on the majors. They go to pointing out that Jesus spent time with sinners who did not look right or act right and criticize the religious crowd. They remind everyone that we do not need to preach on dress and lifestyle and music and Bible versions because Jesus did not address these things to the people he met.
This type of statement indicates a spiritually immature way of understanding. Jesus never told these people that once they changed clothes, reformed their lifestyle, stopped listening to Babylonian music that He would then talk to them about being saved. Jesus showed them love because they were in their sin and needed help. When they saw their need of salvation, Jesus made statements such as, “Go and sin no more.” After salvation, these people were not to return to their worldly lifestyle. I believe in come as you are, but I also believe you can’t stay as you are.
So what went wrong? I do believe that there are some preachers and churches out there who are teaching change first, then come in. But I believe they are fewer than some believe. I believe the problem is not what is being preached from the pulpit, but what is taking place at home during dinner after the message of the day has been heard that is the problem. When our children hear the pastor's message and then hear parents criticize at lunch, well, this causes a problem. Too many pastors are being served up at dinner and they are not even sitting at the table. I also see that our young people are hearing the message preached and watch their parents do everything that is preached in the message -- while they are at church or a church function or when the pastor is around. But they see a whole different world at home or at work or at school from the same people who dress and act right at church, but not anywhere else. This becomes a pattern for our young people. After twenty plus years in ministry I have seen many excuses from young people leaving church, but all seem to reflect on a disagreement in their mind between the commandments of God and the love of God. These two areas go hand in hand.
Here is a passage for parents. The underlines are my emphasis.
Deuteronomy 6:1-25: (v. 1-4) Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
(The commandments of God were listed first, then next is the love of God.)
(vs 5-25) And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates. And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, And houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full; Then beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you; (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth. Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee, and that thou mayest go in and possess the good land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, To cast out all thine enemies from before thee, as the LORD hath spoken. And when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What mean the testimonies, and the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD our God hath commanded you? Then thou shalt say unto thy son, We were Pharaoh's bondmen in Egypt; and the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand: And the LORD shewed signs and wonders, great and sore, upon Egypt, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes: And he brought us out from thence, that he might bring us in, to give us the land which he sware unto our fathers. And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
Love does no good if we do not keep His commandments. You cannot reach the world to give them new life of change without there being a change. Parents, if your children have walked away, what did you really teach? Israel did a very poor job. What are we doing?
Please explain more a couple of points.
ReplyDelete1. paragraph one--if so many young people are describing the Fundamental Baptist church as one way- could there possibly be some truth in what they are saying. If so how should the church address these issues?
2. paragraph two--you mention that they are going to other religions...clarify this- does this mean Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, etc. or are they going to different denominations within Christianity itself. If that is the case, is it wrong for a person to go outside the Fundamental Baptist church? Does one have to stay in this denomination to love God?
3. paragraph 3--Is it the church's responsibility to change someone's lifestyle or the Holy Spirit's?
4. paragraph 4--Where does it say in the Bible that someone has to strickly follow what the church teaches? Isn't is more important to follow what the Bible teaches? Also, is the soul of the child strickly in the hands of his/her parents? Isn't it a personal decision?
5. Finally, Doesn't the scripture that you used commands the parents to teach their children God's word? Does this mean that everything that the church preaches should also be included in this? Is there a time because man is fallible that the church can also be fallible at times?
1. Yes there is some truth in their observations, however the problem comes from their lack of true spiritual knowledge and discernment that comes with spiritual maturity. I blame those responsible for their training.
ReplyDelete2. When I say they are leaving, there doesn't have to be anything where particular. Their reason for leaving is a dislike of something; their reason for going where they end up is usually because it is the opposite of where they were not because of enlightenment of something spiritual.
3. It is definitely the Holy Spirit who teaches the christian in all things. I have many times sat in a service hearing a message where the Holy Spirit was leading me that something was wrong with what was just said. However, I do think it is the responsibility of the church to teach the truth. The pastor will be held accountable for his ministry.
4. Follow the Scripture. If your church is not teaching the truth get out now. The Parents are going to answer for their responsibility given to them to teach their children. Yes children as long as they are a child differ nothing from a servant. However when the receive the adoption of sons they have the full rights. There does come a point of time where they become answerable for their actions.
5. Man and the church are fallible. To be sarcastic; I guess we just quit trying to do right since we are all fallible. The reality is that God is aware of fallible men and set in place passages of Scriptures to deal with that as and when it happens. No excuse for anyone to turn away from the Bible, and God's plan for the church.
There are several other reasons, not addressed in your blog, that people (of all ages...not just young people) are leaving FB churches...I'll just touch on one of the key ones that I have specifically observed:
ReplyDelete"Forms are overlapping Functions in many FB churches"
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Many of the issues or arguments that you mentioned in Paragraph #1 are examples of forms which have become part of the accepted "doctrine" or Functions of FB churches. Your paragraph #2, in part, touches on this concept, when you mention "majors" and "minors", however you argument assumes that the minors are also either "black or white / holy or unholy"...to me, if they truly are a matter of sin and holiness or "being right with God", then they are not "minors"...they are MAJORS! I take a different approach and look at the majors and minors a bit differently from your perspective, so for the sake of my comment I define form and function as follows:
Function = the Biblical mandates, foundational doctrines or essential components of the church, things that MUST be done in the church according to the Bible; these are the invariables which cannot change without violating scriptural doctrine
Form = how the Functions manifest themselves in the local church; they are variables which can change depending on one's culture, preference or generation without affecting Biblical doctrine.
Example: Let us look at the ordinance of the Lord's Supper (or Breaking of Bread) - in the U.S. we typically pass "the cup" by handing out tiny portions in individual cups, while some of our Chinese brethren literal pass "the cup"...a single cup (with each partaker using their own spoon for sanitary purposes)...showing the beauty of a unified body of Christ, all of them worshipping and partaking together. Which method is wrong...neither! Which is right...BOTH!]
Differences in style, culture or preference do not make one form superior or more holy than another, but sadly our culture or the part of the country we come or the Bible college or seminary we attended often dictates our opinion of what we perceive to be right or wrong.
What we should be doing is looking at the forms and practices within our local church and asking ourselves the question, "Have I taken principles and made them precepts in order to fit my personal preference or cultural style?
Just because a church from the Northeast may have a serene, reverential and sacred church experience does not mean that a church down South whose having a "hallelujah fit" ("Bless God!"; "AMEN!"; "PREACH IT!"; "Shake that bush!") is doing the Devil's work...and vice versa! What does it mean? It means that there are cultural differences between the people of the Northeast and the people of the South which are affecting they way that they worship and praise God. That is all!
(con't below)
(con't from above)
ReplyDeleteHere's an example of how quickly we can find a principle in Scripture to "mandate our practice" as we turn a form into a function...which can then conflict with another's "interpretation of the same matter, which then leads to strife and disunity within the body of Christ:
I read the verse "Let all things be done decently and in order." and I think to myself..."hmmmm....ALL things? well, that must mean my penmanship too! I MUST take time and be very careful to write ever so neatly so that I do not violate Scripture." My friend, also trying to decide what to do about his penmanship, reads the following verse: "Redeeming the time because the days are evil." He thinks in his mind "if I take the extra time to write this paper neatly then I will not be following this Biblical instruction...I will be wasting time." Then naturally, he and I quarrel, because he does not do things decently and in order (Our God is a God of order isn't He? Therefore my friend must surely be UNgodly!), and in his mind, I waste valuable time which should be spent on more holy things than worrying about my penmanship.
While this is a simplistic example...it shows the nature of how division and disunity can so easily be spread when we innocently or purposefully turn forms into functions. To my knowledge God has not directly instructed us on our penmanship (whether it should be tidy or not), therefore if I start making up rules and regulations that my church members need to follow and give certain standards of penmanship to be used by the congregation, then I am no better than the Pharisees who added hundreds of hair-splitting, legalistic rules to the Law which God had commanded them to obey.
I do not believe the answer to the question is to label the ones leaving as "spiritually immature" or blame the parents for "being critical" of the message over Sunday lunch. As parents, we have a responsibility to teach our children...part of that teaching must include helping them to think critically and use discernment as they listen to the Word being preached. They need to be able to discern when the preacher is "on a soap box" from the solid preaching of Inerrant Truth. We should welcome and encourage parents who do this, not presume that they are the cause of an exodus. Critical thinkers recognize inconsistencies and when these inconsistencies do not have rock solid, Biblical foundations, they move onto churches that recognize forms for what they are.
Let's define what they are leaving. Fundamental Bible: The Bible is the final authority for all life. The Bible is without any error in any area. Also the Bible it self teaches that there is no private interpretation of Scripture. The Fundamentals are the basic doctrines or teachings of the Bible that are absolutes that all other aspects of truths of the Bible are based. There have been lists given out over the years. To stay simple here the belief of who God is and what he said about how we should love him and others is the basis for the fundamentals of the faith. If the Pastor of the church and the parents are teaching this truth; they are the true fundamental Bible churches. If the pastor is not teaching the truth then you should leave. So when I say young people are leaving the Fundamental Bible churches I am referring to those who are leaving the truth. So I questioned why they would leave the truth. When parents did not first teach the truth in home by word or by practice there are consequences to those actions. When the attack on the man of God who is teaching the truth, there are consequences.
ReplyDeleteLet's use one of your illustrations above. a pastor preaches a message and says that everyone should have good hand writing and a guest preachers speaks next and says you should write quickly to move on to something else; what do you do as a parent? I am not giving an answer here. This is my point. That how you answer this makes all the difference in the world.
If you have a pastor who preaches that in order to be right with God you must do.... list of do's and don'ts is not teaching the truth of God's Word. That pastor is not a fundamental Bible preacher. I have grown up and attended good solid Bible believing Fundamentally sound churches and watched people leave. That is not to say that some heard the truth from both parents and pastors and still left; but way to many left because the truth was not taught at home and what was heard louder was the actions of life and the loose words said against the man of God. If you have something against the pastor where you are....leave. Be careful you are not leaving somewhere the Bible is truly being taught.
My family resigned ourselves from the SBC/IFB churches because the very name "Baptist" today denotes for most Americans and others...a "nutty, closed Arminian order of religious people who are everyday 'open-armed' welcoming in "Pentecostal-rambling, shouting-screaming, cat-calling speakers and church members into their churches thus corrupting what was left of the once conservative pre-1790 Baptist-Calvinist Doctrines taught, preached, and defended throughout the early Baptists denomination of Great Britain and The American Colonies!"
ReplyDeleteThis 'backwoods, illiterate Baptist entertainment is being passed off as "Old-Fashioned Preaching" (blasphemy, false-preaching, and it is sick). This "junk" passed off as 'preaching is really a real Southern 'Money-Maker" as it deceives and convinces the "simple-minded" Baptist church goer that he/she has corporately worshiped "Biblically." What the crowds are getting is "very little actual Bible taught, zero Doctrines, a whole lot of "off-the-wall" topical "MOUTH" from a blow-hard "ordained hick", and finishing up with a long, drawn-out Altar Call with very soft music meant to "woo" God's Spirit and "work" the audiences. But if this stuff is what you're use to and you love "Coo-Coo"...this junk is definitely 'your cup of tea'.
As for me, I'd rather spend the time allotted to me and my family more wisely...by hearing Calvinistic-Expository Preaching, and studying "The Bible, it's Doctrines of Grace, and its Truths---so I and my family can "grow in Grace and in the Knowledge of God".